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Steve, I agree on this one, I still think there is a good possibility Joba comes out of the pen.

I think Mussina starts the season as the 5 and until he blows up, Joba will stay in the pen. I'd rather take my chances with Mussina as the 5 and have the late innings secure with Joba/Rivera, at least to start the season, then possibly try and stretch Joba out as the season goes on maybe? Sort of like how the Twins first treated Santana.

Mussina is on the team so you might as well try to get the most out of him because whether we like it or not he's going to be on the roster. His peak value is as a starter, I think they at least give him a chance to start. Of course I have little confidence in him but hey that doesn't mean it can't happen!

Now the key is that Hughes and Kennedy have to be effective(assuming they don't get traded), if not then you might have to use Joba as a starter, but even then I would think they would have to limit his innings in some way and then that will put more pressure on the bullpen.

Either way this season is going to hinge on the effectiveness of the young arms the Yankees have(starting and relief), if they don't step up then it will be tough to compete at a championship level.

I think Veras has the most potential. While I think Joba has the makeup and stuff to be a great set up man/closer I think it would be myopic to relegate him to that role.

Hawkins? Do you really think he has the make-up and/or the stuff to be the bridge to Rivera?
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Sure, why not? He's closed games for the Cubs & Twins...

May as well throw Bruney & Britton in the mix too.

~~~Sure, why not? [Hawkins'] closed games for the Cubs & Twins...May as well throw Bruney & Britton in the mix too.~~~

Raf, with all due respect, are you drinking bong water today?

Raf, with all due respect, are you drinking bong water today?

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lol.

I was thinking about a similar subject last night actually, what if mariano gets hurt? Then Joba MUST come out of hte pen.

As Steve Goldman pointed out:

http://web.yesnetwork.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20071212&content_id=1434835&oid=36019&vkey=5

...Hawkins supposedly came up with a slider last year, which led to an improved record in the second half. It didn't really lead to many more batters swinging and missing, which is a concern. On the other hand-and this part is really interesting-Hawkins did produce the highest groundball-flyball rate of his career last year. Whereas for the last 12 years he's been a fly ball pitcher or a break even guy. In 2007, Hawkins got three grounders for every flyout, a higher ratio that Chien-Ming Wang got. If that was a fluke, then Hawkins is likely going to be pounded next year, just as he was with the Orioles in 2006. If not, the Yankees have gotten themselves the rare reliever with a second act, and someone who can, like Wang, survive his low strikeout rate.
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So maybe there is a rational basis for believing that Hawkins might contribute.

I have a strange feeling in the pit of my stomach that we'll see a little more from Farnsworth this season - something tells me the guy was immensely frustrated with Torre last year and having a fresh start with his former catcher might bring a little extra out of him.

That said, I think the effect will last about 3 months into the season, and he'll revert back to his erratic self in the 2nd half. :)

Raf, with all due respect, are you drinking bong water today?
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No, or I would've mentioned Pavano as an option... (:

Look at the setup men around the league. Hawkins should be around the middle of the pack.

You questioned his "makeup & stuff" which is irrelevant. He has closing experience, and stuff isn't the be-all end-all in baseball. Or else Farnsworth would be untouchable.

The Yanks have enough options coming out of the pen. You listed 5. I listed two more. Ramirez is also there, Rivera could come in for an 8th inning save or three. Someone else will become available during the season. Someone will step up during the season.

FWIW, Joe Borowski & Bobby Jenks came out of nowhere to become closers.

The Yanks will be fine.

"FWIW, Joe Borowski & Bobby Jenks came out of nowhere to become closers."
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I thought Bruney might become a Jenks type of story, but after last season, it seems not so much.

Steve

I am a little disappointed in you. I was expecting you to blame the lack of a reliable 8th inning guy on Cashman. LOL

Anyway, I am not so certain that we have anything to worry about. One thing about relievers is that aside from the best of the best like Rivera, they can come out of nowhere every year and then disappear the next year. There is no reason to not to believe that any of the guys we have like Farnsworth, Veras, Bruney, Hawkins, Britton, Ohlendorf, or even any of the young guys like Horne and Marquez can become reliable just for this year alone. Hell everyone thought the Red Sox had a terrible bullpen last year and the only thing they did to fix it was put Papelstain back as the closer. Did anyone see Jokeajima becoming good? Or Timlin somehow pitching effectively at the age of 40 (PED's anyone)? Or Delcarmen or any of the other losers they employ not imploding? The fact is building a bullpen is mostly luck and it is about time we get some of that luck. My prediction....By midseason everyone will be patting Cashman on the back for his bullpen construction because we will have among the top bullpens in baseball and Cash didnt go out and lock himself into long term deals for mediocre relievers.

~~~I was expecting you to blame the lack of a reliable 8th inning guy on Cashman. ~~~

Well, since you brought it up... {wink}

Giradi went to the wall for Farnsworth, so I would expect him to be the eighth-inning guy to start the year. Outside of the closer (and sometimes the setup man) a bullpen is always in a state of flux. Performance (should, anyway) determine where they are used. I'm sure Girardi will do the same.

There are also many minor-league options, which I've detailed a million times. I think Alan Horne presents an interesting option. Unlike Joba, he's not a 1/2 starter. I think his ceiling is maybe a 3 or less than that. So if they put him in the 'pen and he excels, it wouldn't be a huge loss for him to no longer be a starter. That's why it makes sense for Papelbon to be a closer. As a closer, he's unhittable, but as a starter he's a 3. You can't make a stud starter like Joba a reliever. But you can definitely take a 3/4 starter like Horne and do it.

Yankee fans are whistling past the graveyard if they seriously believe that they'll have no worries about the bullpen with Joba in the rotation.

Oh wait. That's right, I forgot. All of their pitching prospects are just biding their time before the Hall comes a callin'. My mistake. The Yankee bullpen will be awesome next year. No doubt about it.

The fact is that the Yankees are taking huge risks to presume that the bullpen will sort itself out, especially with three starters who are little more than 5+ inning pitchers at this rate, due to age or inexperience.

The biggest advantage the Red Sox had was that they called on their bullpen less than anyone else in the league last year (I believe) and that kept people rested, until Okajima started to show the effects. Do Yankee fans expect a huge number of innings from their starters? How can they? They not only don't have a bridge to Mariano, they are going to need, as often as not, a bridge to get to the bridge to get to Mariano!

Middle relief is a crap shoot, with a lot of variation from season to season. Cashman may have done right in not making long-term expensive commitments, he will still need to catch lightning in a bottle with multiple arms in order for the Yankee bullpen to be a strength and not a weakness.

The Red Sox called on their bullpen less than anyone else last year because they could let people like Deuce-K and Beckett throw 130 pitches and not worry about injuries. Seriously, in this day and age, starters get pulled with 100 pitches but the Sox leave the starters out there and suffer no ill effects. One can only hope that their brass will be punished this year.

What a crock of shit, Ference.

In 2007, Beckett averaged 103.5 pitches per start.
Schilling averaged 94.8.
Dice-K averaged 108.8.
Wakefield averaged 93.2.

It was the excellence of the starters, not abusive pitch counts, that reduced the strain on the bullpen.

no such thing as a guaranteed set-up man. look at Gagne. he was supposed to seal the deal for Bahston last year. that deal looked like a steal and it just might be, only for Texas - Gagne turned into merely a 'B' FA, Texas got a solid LHP starter, a serviceable CFer and a super high-ceiling teenage OFer.

anyway, my point is that outside of closers, it's very hard to rely on set-up men year in and year out, hence Cash is doing a good job building a pen out of about 20 options. one arm gets tired, bring up another one. and there's always the possibility of Horne, Melancon and/or Sanchez having a Joba-like effect in 2008.

oh and Dan, Daisuke led all baseball in PAP, Beckett also was 22nd.