WasWatching.com

Clemens really isn't a Yankee anyway. He will always be a Red Sock.

Maybe I'm being an apologist, but did Andy really even do anything wrong here? He was trying to get back on the field to compete in a way that seems no different than a cortisone shot. I guess he should've had a doctor's prescription for the HGH, but I look at this as being a lot different than what Clemens was apparently doing. Clemens, I'm not too happy about.

Of course, no current or recently prominent Sox were mentioned.

did Andy really even do anything wrong here?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

He certainly sensed that it was wrong at the time. He secretly called McNamee for the injection and then he later talked to McNamee about how to cover it up.

Pettitte's a cheater. It's a shame that we'll be stuck with the Pettitte circus next year.

I read most of the individual player stuff. Looks like Clemens is going to be the poster boy for the report. Pretty unflattering if it's all true. Might even be a legacy-breaker ala Bonds. I think the players union comes off looking like a misguided parent that files a law suit when a teacher fills out a report card saying their kid is disruptive in class. Three cheers for all the good players that aren't in this report.

As for Mitchell...He was a duplicitous partisan while he was a senator. I have no reason to trust his impartiality now.

Will doctors really give you a prescription of HGH to heal an injury at an artificially fast rate? I doubt it. Otherwise, why wouldn't every player get one.

I don't think you can say that what Pettitte did wasn't wrong (unless you don't believe that taking steroids is wrong period, which i think is perfectly valid contention). Certainly not as bad as Clemens, who was responsible for bringing a number of other people into the steroid fold, but still not by any means absolved of guilt.

Someone's name not being in there means nothing, as here's a quote from it: “if you dig further you're going to find more names but at what point does it become pointless?” Which begs the question as to why the names that were brought up were mentioned? Basically, it becomes pointless when you start looking at the Red Sox is the way I read it.

It seems like they basically just found a couple of distribution threads and followed where they flowed. There is no way that there were not other channels of distribution in baseball that this does not over. There are a lot of players out there right now who I'm sure are breathing sighs of relief that their supplier wasn't one of the ones who got pulled into the report.

What Pettitte is alleged to have done is not a big deal to me. He was rehabbing and wanted to rehab quicker. Big deal.

Anyway, this whole report is a giant waste of time. Some of the allegations in here are paper thin. Someone told someone that someone MIGHT have taken something? C'mon! This is someone's reputation here. Some people wrote checks, but they were writing them to a clubhouse attendant. So it's non-specific. Players use those guys to buy all sorts of things.

Everyone mentioned in this report -- save for the ones who confessed -- have a plausible denial. There's practically no concrete evidence. No witnesses were able to be cross-examined by the accused. It's a joke.

This "evidence" would be laughed out of court, and yet people's reputations are being ruined by it. A complete farce.

What Pettitte is alleged to have done is not a big deal to me. He was rehabbing and wanted to rehab quicker. Big deal.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Ah, fan boy minimalization! It doesn't matter what any of us think about it. He sought an unfair advantage for himself by using an illegal substance; by definition, he's a cheater.

http://www.tpmmuckraker.com/archives/004899.php

Theo Epstein, Eric Gagne and the Boston Red Sox: A Match Made in Muck Heaven
By Spencer Ackerman - December 13, 2007, 2:52PM

The fallout from George Mitchell's 409-page report (pdf) into baseball's Steroids Era (Mitchell's words) is yet to fully drop. We're still combing the report for the most explosive revelations -- no big surprise that Yankee greats Roger Clemens and Andy Pettitte juiced -- but for now, this Yankee fan wants to bring you his moment of schadenfreude. To wit: the 2007 World Champion Boston Red Sox. According to Mitchell, Sox general manager Theo Epstein acquired flop reliever Eric Gagne nearly a year after learning of serious circumstantial evidence of Gagne's steroid use.

Gagne and Paul Lo Duca were teammates in Los Angeles from 1999 to 2004. During that time, Gagne used Lo Duca, who went on to a beloved career catching for the Mets (sorry, Paul), as his hook-up to steroid and human-growth hormone pusher Kirk Radomski. The Red Sox scouted Gagne, once a valuable relief pitcher, after the 2006 season, when Epstein began overhauling the Sox pitching staff. Yet a certain concern lingered. On November 1, 2006, Epstein emailed his scout, Mark Delpiano, "Have you done any digging on Gagne? I know the Dodgers think he was a steroid guy. Maybe so. What do you hear on his medical?"

Delpiano replied:

Some digging on Gagne and steroids IS the issue. Has had a checkered medical past throughout career including minor leagues. Lacks the poise and commitment to stay healthy, maintain body and re invent [sic] self. What made him a tenacious closer was the max effort plus stuff.

Yet the Sox picked up Gagne from the Texas Rangers at the trade deadline during the 2007 season. What does that say about Epstein's commitment to a steroid-free championship team?

Sour grapes from a Yankee fan? Yeah, guilty as charged. But if there's a silver lining here, it's that Gagne, a juicer, stunk, and a certain thoroughly-unlikeable-but-steroid/HGH-free slugger is going to redeem baseball's holiest record.

jonm, HGH wasn't illegal in baseball until 2005, and according to this stupid report, doesn't have any performance "enhancing" capabilities. Now you can argue that getting back on the field is enhancing, but considering a Cortisone shot does the same thing and is legal, where do you draw the line? Call it fanboy rationalization, but this report is ridiculous, just look at the segment on Brian Roberts- pure hearsay.

Meanwhile, no A-Rod.

PFFFFFFFFFFBBBBBBTTTTTTT!!!! to any who took the previous thread about his association with Canseco seriously.

Can someone check my math for me?

-Based on a quick look over, the Mitchell list has 67 names on it.

-Of those 67 names, 15 are current and former Yankees. That's 22% of the report. Of those 15, 10 were on the roster during the championship years (give or take Glenallen Hill).

-There are no current Red Sox in the report. (Thanks to Donnelly being non-tendered yesterday).

-Two years ago Mitchell was a paid member of the Red Sox organization. After the conclusion of the report, he will be again (see the Bryant article on ESPN).

-Now I'm not saying that what's in the report isn't probably true. But does anyone but me think there's a SEVERE credibility issue here based on the above information? I know Mitchell was a senator. I do not consider politicians to be inherently credible.

My point is, I'm not saying there's a conspiracy. I'm not saying this is a sham. But based on the above information, you have to wonder if all leads in Boston were followed up upon, don't you?

(And don't give me Vaughn, Gagne, and Donnely, since the report almost explicitly states all used when NOT with the Sox)

I just think he happened to find that distribution thread that went through the Yankees club house and so there were a bunch of Yankees linked through that and through Grimsley and that accounts for it. I'm sure there were other distributors supplying other locker rooms that Mitchell didn't find out about or couldn't get enough evidence on. I think he was basically getting whatever he could get a hold of and with few players talking, the picture is far from complete.

It is sort of embarrassing that they let Clemens talk them into hiring that guy and then he turned out to be supplying various members of the team with steroids.

You're right, Chris. It just kind of stinks that the bulk of this report is based on info that they got from a former Mets trainer and a former Yankees trainer. I just hope no one looks at this report as a "definitive" statement on the era, because it's certainly not that (and Mitchell sort of seems to be admitting that).

Yet Theo had advance knowledge that Gagne was a known PED user but he acquired him anyway.

That may be the single most damning thing in the report.

I haven't seen similar facts established in the report about Cashman's poor judgment and character.

I have a serious problem with this witch hunt. First of all these are all the names they could produce after this long drawn out investigation! Secondly, how is it possible that Mitchell adds Clemens and Pettite to this report based on an eyewitness that has an extremely checkered past but rumors are circulating that there were many other names left off the list. Lastly, does anyone here remember a few years back there was a Sox pitcher who came up from the minors in I believe 2004 and I believe he was cut in 2005. He is a no name that didn't contribute. After he was cut he made statements that half of the Sox clubhouse was using roids. Well isn't he an eyewitness to those facts? So why weren't any Red Sox names on that list? This is a joke and you have another case of a senator using his political clout and ties to the Red Sox and brandeshing 11 former and current Yankee players but not naming ONE current Red Sox player! This is a joke!

Call it fanboy rationalization, but this report is ridiculous, just look at the segment on Brian Roberts- pure hearsay.
-----

Exactly. Thank you for saving me the time of having to write it.

I give you the single-finger salute for calling me a fanboy, jonm, something I am not and something I take offense to. I said *I* *personally* am not *bothered* by what Pettitte did. I don't think people should take HGH and you can call it "cheating" if you want. But the year was 2002 and exactly how much did Pettitte or anyone else know about it? It wasn't against the rules of baseball at the time, and quickening rehab hardly seems evil. Cheating? Maybe. But to me PERSONALLY I don't find it to be too big of a deal. It's understandable.

jonm, HGH wasn't illegal in baseball until 2005, and according to this stupid report, doesn't have any performance "enhancing" capabilities. Now you can argue that getting back on the field is enhancing, but considering a Cortisone shot does the same thing and is legal, where do you draw the line?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
It was certainly illegal to use HGH in this way without a prescription. If it's no different than a cortisone shot, why didn't Pettitte go to the Yankees trainer for the shot? Why did he sneak around and let a guy with a sports administration degree from St. John's shoot him up?

All the witch hunt talk is fan boy-rationalizing evasion. At the end of the day, the fact of the matter is that there is strong evidence that Clemens and Pettitte are cheaters. They should be ashamed of themselves.

Also, by the way, we finally have circumstantial evidence that Clemens was using when the bat-throwing incident of 2000 occurred. Roid rage, perhaps?

I give you the single-finger salute for calling me a fanboy
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Nothing personal, baileywalk. I just don't understand defending these guys. I mean, what were these guys thinking when some sleazy character (hired twice by the Yankees by the way) was sticking a needle in their asses?

Also, I'll bash Cashman in this case. Cashman is not a clueless guy; I would bet that Cashman knew this stuff was going on.

I realize that there are differences between the way HGH is treated and the way cortisone shots are treated, but my question, which apparently I have to spell out, is should there be a difference? The arguments put forth in this work argue that HGH has no performance-enhancing ability. Used properly (which would indicate under a doctor's care, which Pettitte avoided), it's not a health risk. What's the problem? Just because the government labels something a controlled substance hardly makes it so. Alcohol is far more dangerous than marijuana, yet one is illegal and the other is available at every corner. Anyway, that's for another time and place.....

As far as strong evidence, you read a better report than I did......Not saying it isn't true, but it was one man's testimony to avoid prosecution. Read up on drug informants to see how reliable that information can often not be.

"Clemens really isn't a Yankee anyway. He will always be a Red Sock."

Oh no. Don't give him back now. He wants to enter the hall with a yankee cap. He won championships with the yankees. He got a standing ovation when he came back. Oh no. You wanted him, he's yours :)

"This "evidence" would be laughed out of court, and yet people's reputations are being ruined by it. A complete farce."

You do realize this wasn't 'court', right baileywalk? Come on, this is simple stuff. Think for once. If jail time was a possibility the fence would be much higher.

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to realize clemens did steroids. A court of law is much different. Comparing one to the other, judging everything by the measuring stick of "would it hold up in a court" is nonsense.

Quit repeating things you hear john kruk say. :)

how opportunistic sawx fans are. to jump on a Yankee blog when two prominent players are named in the Mitchell Report.

did you know George Mitchell is a Director for the sawx? would he really implicate his own co-workers/employees? did you know the two main sources for the report are former Met and Yankee employees? do you really think trainers/clubhouse attendants from the Dodgers, Cubs, Sawx, whoever wouldn't know about roid use on their teams? did you know they were being threatened with prison time?

i'm not saying they're innocent though, but that guys who aren't named shouldn't be presumed innocent either. this report is hardly definitive.

maybe it's YOU who should 'think for once.' :D

where's sosa, mcguire?

There's another reason why this report is such a farce. I'm sitting here thinking, Sox fan, you think Ortiz, Manny, etc. were clean? Yet I have no reason to believe that any of those guys used. So basically, we're no better off than we were before, except a few guys are going to be crucified for what a large percentage of the league was guilty of to some degree.

"Of all the Yankees fingered, only Pettitte matters now. And, from what I'm reading, Andy used HGH in 2002 for his elbow rehab"

Pettitte is as big as an NFL linebacker. He juiced for a lot longer than it took to rehab his elbow. Take the halo out from over his head. He's a cheater and so is Clemens. Birds of a feather flock together.

So basically, we're no better off than we were before, except a few guys are going to be crucified for what a large percentage of the league was guilty of to some degree.
================
Did you think there was any other point to this exercise?

Look ,I always try to be objective on this site always giving props to the Sox and the Jays among other things.This is where I draw the line...This report is so NY centric that it is digusting!Mitchell is an executive on one of the teams being investigated...where is Papi,where is Manny's name on this list?Hot to Trot Nixon seems to be one of the only names on the list!Yeah,Theo's e-mail shows up but wasn't a former Red Sox claiming that half the clubhouse was shooting up?Where is his name?In essence,there are 28 other teams in the MLB ,not just the Yanks and the Mets.Can you believe we've achieved some Yankee/ Met Unity for a change!