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August 01, 2007

Torre A Lame Duck Manager This Year?

It sure sounds like the team has lost it's love for Joe. From Dan Graziano -

Torre has frustrated people in the front office with his loyalty to slumping veterans and his refusal to use the players (Shelley Duncan, Edwar Ramirez, Andy Phillips when he first came up) they have promoted from their system. He voiced strong opposition to proposed deals for outfielder Milton Bradley and infielder Morgan Ensberg -- deals the Yankees eventually turned down in part because they believed those players would just rot on the bench. Duncan, who was a budding cult hero at Yankee Stadium a week and a half ago, played in just two games on the road trip that followed his big-splash debut weekend.

So as the Yankees mulled different available bench players in advance of the deadline, the common off-the-record refrain from Yankees officials was "our manager won't play him anyway."

It's just about impossible to find somebody in the Yankee organization who thinks Torre will be managing the team in 2008. He's a sure bet to finish out this season, but plans are in the works to replace him with Joe Girardi, Don Mattingly, Bobby Valentine or somebody else when it's over. And that feeling has made complaining about Torre a popular pastime around the team.

"All the people who used to ride with him in his Mercedes," said one team official, who requested anonymity because he was discussing such a sensitive topic, "are spitting on it now."

Posted by Steve Lombardi at August 1, 2007 09:10 AM


Certainly what the article says rings true, but there was only one source quoted. The press is very good at presenting a story with any slant they want, so I wonder the reality of what was written.

"..are spitting on it now."
Spittting on Joe? His Mercedes? What does this mean? Is this the best quote the writter could coe up with?

If at these meetings, Cashman, Stick and/or the Boss (and or others in the FO) gave Torre some feedback to play the kids, Torre ignors it? It's very hard to know the truth as most journalism is yellow these days.

Posted by: singledd [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 1, 2007 09:35 AM

Wow, if that is really the case, then why is Torre still the manager? His job is to play the people that give the Yankees the best chance to win games. If he cannot see that a young player needs to get a shot, he shouldn't be manager. I like Torre, but if this is true, he should go now, not after the season.

Posted by: Mike [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 1, 2007 09:36 AM

11 straight playoff appearances, 6 World Series, 4 rings...how much more does a man need to do to get a lifetime appointment here? Torre's at least as deserving as any sitting judge on the Supreme Court. I look forward to many years of Mr. Torre and his circle of champions trust in the South Bronx. Anyone who thinks otherwise is just plain wrong.

Posted by: JohnnyC [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 1, 2007 09:39 AM

That's it! Get rid of Joe right now!! I mean, he didn't want great clubhouse guy Milton Bradley and the highly productive Morgan Ensberg! And, he wasn't keen on throwing rookies into high-pressure pennant race situations just after being called up. Totally unreasonable.

Can Graziano get serious? Who in the "organization" is he talking about? Some flunky in Tampa? Bobby V's agent? (Oh, I just loved the Bobby V name drop.)

Posted by: Joel [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 1, 2007 09:54 AM

"..are spitting on it now."
Spittting on Joe? His Mercedes? What does this mean? Is this the best quote the writter could coe up with?
Well, you usually have the word "shitting" instead of "spitting."

The point is that everyone was Joe's friend when the going was good. Now that things aren't going so well, his "friends" are turning on him.

Posted by: Raf [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 1, 2007 09:58 AM

Last year it was "spit on ARod", this year it is Joe Torre's turn.

I find it amazing how people just love to find someone to loathe and hate, no matter how well things are going, it's just easier to hate said person.

If Pete Abe says anything positive, then he's towing the company line. Hate has infected a lot of people, I guess it's just easier to go off on the supporters and Torre himself than try and look at anything constructively.

I used to think it was only in Boston that stuff like this happened.

Who is Torre suppose to sit in favor of Shelly? Please, can someone tell me? I see a nice story, but hardly a good major league player. He's a good weapon to have on the bench because he won't get exposed all that quickly.

The other thing I find funny about the critics of Torre and his "penchant" for not playing young players is that the players he's suppose to play they play.

In 2005 when Melky couldn't catch a fly ball or hit, Torre stuck with him over Bernie. In 2001 he stuck with Soriano. In 2005 he didn't have a problem with Wang or Cano.

People want the team to win and keep winning and play young players and we want superstars at every position. Something has to got to give.

The Yankees are now getting good young players coming through their system, give Torre the highly touted prospects and they will get playing time. Give him fringe players and they will fringe player playing time.

Posted by: Garcia [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 1, 2007 10:32 AM

I've said it before and I'll say it again: part of this is Cashman's fault. If a GM can't get his manager on board with the GM's vision and plan for the team, it's the GM's fault for not modifying his manager's behavior or replacing him with someone else who will follow directions.

The blame lies 50-50 here and I wouldn't be overly sorry to see Cashman go. He's done some good things and some bad things but what he hasn't shown is the ability to run the bottom of his organization (the team) with the same confidence he interfaces with the top of his organization (Steinbrenner and upper management). He can stare down Steinbrenner for total control of team operations but let Torre continue to ignore subtle directives to play/trust new faces? Perplexing.

Posted by: MJ [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 1, 2007 11:48 AM

~~~I've said it before and I'll say it again: part of this is Cashman's fault. If a GM can't get his manager on board with the GM's vision and plan for the team, it's the GM's fault for not modifying his manager's behavior or replacing him with someone else who will follow directions.~~~

MJ, with all due respect, I think Torre is following Cashman's vision. If Cashman's vision is to bring in Milton Bradley and Morgan Ensberg and he asks Torre for his input and Torre says, "no", then is he suppose to just bring in the players and say FU to his manager?

I agree that Edwar could have been used better and Torre has even admitted to this, but can you give me someone else this year that Torre didn't use who was brought up from the farm to help the team?

Everyone was screaming about Torre's usage of Bruney, but he must have known something we don't because now all I hear is to DFA Brian Bruney. See that's the thing, we fall in love with some unknown player that has two or three good games and then when they get used more often and gets exposed then we know why Torre didn't trust him originally.

The other thing is that we are on the outside looking in, we don't know if Cashman is telling Torre to use Proctor/Farnsworth in certain situations.

I have a hard time believing that all of a sudden Torre thinks he walks on water, and his interaction with the people above him is to stick up his middle finger at them.

Torre and the Tampa faction have never got along, so are we suppose to believe THEM? These quotes are not coming from Cashman, I sincerely feel that Torre and Cashman have a good working relationship. I feel if Cashman tells Torre something then Torre will listen, and vice versa.

Proctor is gone and Edwar will be coming up soon and we will soon see what this guy is made of. We are in the middle of August, he's gonna be thrown right in the middle of the fire.

If he fails, is it Torre's fault or Edwar's? If he succeeds, is it because Torre is putting him in situations to have him succeed or is Edwar just that good? I know the Torre haters will look to their consistent answers of blaming anything and everything that goes wrong on Torre, and all success because the players are doing it in spite of Torre.

Also MJ, I didn't take your comment as some mean spirited criticism of Torre or anyone else for that matter, it was constructive and not with the usual diatribe I've been seeing lately.

Posted by: Garcia [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 1, 2007 12:13 PM

Garcia, who could sit in place of Shelley? How about tonight against a lefty Damon sits, Duncan DHs? That makes sense to me. Or sit AP once in a while, Duncan definitely has more power than AP. Or sit Abreu or Matsui against the lefty in favor of the righty Duncan (who can play corner OF or just DH). There's a lot of possibilities to get him more abs.

Posted by: Travis G. [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 1, 2007 12:24 PM

~~There's a lot of possibilities to get him more abs.~~

Duncan has been here for 12 games and has played in 7 of them with 24 PAs. That's pretty good usage for a part-time player, no?

Posted by: christopher [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 1, 2007 01:00 PM

I don't want Duncan taking ABs away from Cairo. Duncan should only be used as a late inning PH for the pitcher. So what if he's hit a home run every 5 ABs. I'd like top see him hit at least 100 home runs before he gets more PT than Cairo. Can he bunt or handle the bat like Miggy? No, I didn't think so. Duncan can't play the small ball you need to win ballgames against good teams. That's why he's debuting in the majors at 27.

Posted by: JohnnyC [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 1, 2007 02:39 PM

JohnnyC are you for real ? A lifetime appointment for the worst bullpen manager in the game ? Duncan shouldn't take ABs away from CAIRO ? Duncn can't play small ball, that's why he's debuting at 27 ? Late inning PH for the pitcher ? You realize the next time the Yankees would be batting a pitcher would be IF they get to the World Series ?

I got news for you - Duncan debuted on July 20th. Since then Cairo has 6 AB and Duncan 24. Of those 6 AB, 3 of them came in relief of Jeter at SS in a game that Duncan went 2 for 4 with 2 BB and 4 RBI.

Posted by: Sherard [TypeKey Profile Page] at August 2, 2007 09:10 AM