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I love it when people sit on their soapbox (Mike and the Mad Dog specifically) and start talking about PEDs and calling it "cheating". I love how people can become the moral authority on the entire "cheating" thing, but people cheat all the time. Specific acts of cheating people forget about: taxes, spouse, mistress (yes, there's such a thing as cheating on your mistress), cheating your boss (lying on timesheets), cheating clients (lying about work done), the law (the OZ of pot in some people's freezer), etc, etc.

If I was playing baseball and the following factors existed:
1. the following year I could be signing a HUGE contract.
2. there was no specific testing incorporated that could label me a cheater.
3. you are judged against your peers - like in all walks of life.
4. I could "possibly" reduce ten years of my life for millions in cash - shit, who doesn't withdraw from their 401K? People think about the NOW and don't care about when they are 65 or how long they'll live.

If all those factors existed, I'd be one PED taking mofo. It's only considered cheating till you are caught - it doesn't get any simpler than that. Have you ever seen a driver after they were doing 85 and they get caught by 5-0? They get humbled real quick, but when they are driving like a madman/madwoman they don't think about getting caught. They actually get a thrill about going really fast and doing what some drivers are afraid to do.

I could care less about Bonds and him breaking the homerun record, all great PLAYERS have cheated at one point or another. Isn't there only one definition of "cheating"? If I look it up in the dictionary there aren't levels to cheating. Level 1 cheating is acceptable, but level 5 is not. That's just bullsh*t in my book. Cheating is cheating, and if you can get away with then God bless you my man.

If I could have a robot that I could make look and talk like me and have said robot do my job, then you can pretty much guarantee I'd pay 50K to get the damn thing to do my job for me. Just imagine how much time I'd have at WW so I can post?

Back to Giambi, Bonds, (allegedly) Trawt and Varitek, as well as a slew of others.....keep doing what you are doing, if you can take HGH and not get caught then do you my man, just do you. Who gives a flying f-? Not me. Oh wait...let me guess, "it's about the kids, Man". Well, f- the kids too. Peopel are always so quick to talk about the kids, but they do all sorts of f-ed up crap that their kids see. But it's real easy to point the finger at another guy. It's like the line in Scarface: "wha' dat make you good? You just no how to hide, how to lie, so say ello to the bad guy because it's the last time you'll see a bad guy like me so you can point your f'ing fingers to".

The Eastern Europeans loved getting all those medals, till they got caught. Then the U.S. Olympic team started to take PED - albeit a bit too late. They couldn't quite make a run like the Germans and Russians. Only in the movies does Rocky beat up a juiced up Drago.

I'd rather worry about the poor souls fighting a stupid f'ing war, especially when they are fighting for some ungrateful f-ers too.

"Cheating is baseball's oldest profession. No other game is so rich in skullduggery, so suited to it or so proud of it." - Thomas Boswell

Here is the deal guys... For the stuff in the past, we can go on and on and never get anywhere speculating on who did what. Everyone knows there were some (maybe many) that juiced, and a few took it to heroic levels. Once the testing came in and the rules where laid out, the league ought to punish and punish severely, whether we are talking about greenies or steroids. None of this anonymity on the first offense stuff (that only encourages guys to cheat, especially if they haven't been caught before and are late in their careers). The real issue here is the legacy of the guys that conspicuously juiced. A guy like Nixon isn’t going to the HOF. He’ll live his life in quiet, work a few card shows, rep for car dealerships, maybe work some fantasy camps. Just let him be. For the others, Mac, Bonds, Giambi, Sosa, Palmero, etc…. HOF? Sorry, not by my vote. Their enhanced accomplishments diminished the guys that did it with natural ability and/or hard work. Most of those guys might have made the HOF on natural ability, but they lost that presumption. Remember how mighty Mantle, McCovey, Aaron and Mays' accomplishments looked, and by comparison, how unworldly Ruth's stats were (and still are)?

Baseball is a game where stats mean something because there is no one in the batters box, or on the pitchers mound, with you at crunch time. It's a true team sport, but the accomplishments happen out of individual efforts (unlike football, for example). That’s why the stats have meaning and longevity, and why the Baseball HOF is regarded more highly than the NFL, NBA, or NHL museums. The only issue I see for the guys that juiced is that baseball ought not celebrate their accomplishments by having them throw out balls at future WS, no honorary captainships at the All Star games, etc.... These guys did what they did, and made buckets of money while doing it, but they don't deserve to be cherished by the fans for generations or included among the elites that did it naturally. For some of the current players that are building HOF credentials (like DJ, Pujols, Tejada and Alex) proving that they could continue to perform at HOF levels for a few years after the testing was instituted will earn them a place at the head table. To make the point, notice how Sosa feel apart as soon as testing came on. How about this for a proposal, all major leaguers have to give a blood and urine sample so if and when they get a test for HGH, they can test in arrears.

Seems to me that of the guys who were named, Giambi got the best legal advice. Tell the truth to the grand jury, address it obliquely in the press, and shut up as much as possible. This Bonds-blaming-others or the “dunderhead excuse” method is going to do nothing but isolate him in the clubhouse and make the fans hate him even more, and forever.

The issue stretches further than just the athlete cheating. A lot of kids are now taking steroids in high school. I found this amazing when I first heard it, but apparently steroid use among teenagers is rampant. Some people aren't even playing sports -- they just want to look better. This is a serious problem. So sports have to do whatever they can to test and bust players.

Is it cheating? Hell yeah, it's cheating. Do you think it's fair for Mike Mussina to pitch naturally his entire career and age normally, losing some of his fastball, while someone else juices and gets better as they get older? Or is it fair for Mo Rivera to be clean and give up a home run to a guy who is so big and strong and fast from steroids that he hits an opposite-field home run on a ball boring in on his fists?

People do steroids because they work -- they make you faster and stronger. They won't turn a bad player into a good player, but they will make a fringe player a big-leaguer, a decent player an everyday player, a good player a great player, and a great player superhuman (which is what happened with Bonds).

There should never been a situation where one person or one team has an advantage over another. It would be like giving one guy a wood bat and another guy a stick. Why should one set of players bust their butts to stay in shape and do what they do on the field while another uses drugs to get the same result? Why should that be allowed?

I understand why guys like Giambi (and God knows thousands more; the numbers-spike from 2000-2003 was insane in this league) did 'roids, but baseball was smart to start testing to try to get it out of the game, and they should continue to do so.

So, when do we kick Gaylord Perry out of the HoF?

I've been going to a gym since I was 15, I'm 30 now. Steroids are being done by a lot of people, I could care less if the kid is 12 or if he's a man. It's about time people accept accoutability for THEIR actions.

I've never taken anything you'd call a PED. I never cared enough about looking good - I thank my mom and dad for NATURALLY looking good, yes...I'm f'ing sexy (joke there).

My favorite three players growing up were: Mattingly, LT, and Darryl. Two of the three took coke, I never took coke. Why? Because I saw what coke did to people in my community. I did like green "tea" though. Any person who sits back and blames Bonds for his kid's steroids use is f'ing whacked and should have their semen/eggs revoked so they don't procreate ever agin. We already have enough stupid people in the country - myself included but I'm at least practical.

There should never been a situation where one person or one team has an advantage over another.
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It has always been that way.

The only issue I see for the guys that juiced is that baseball ought not celebrate their accomplishments by having them throw out balls at future WS, no honorary captainships at the All Star games, etc....
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And if that happens, I suspect MLB should give the $$ they made off these players to charity. Maybe an anti-steroid group of some sort. Because these guys knew. They had to. If the steroid issue is as big as some make it out to be, it doesn't become as pervasive as it has been without people looking the other way.

So, baileywalk, when Terrel Owens or Clinton Portis climbs in their hyperbolic chamber at night, which supposedly makes them younger and healthier... is that cheating? What if Barry Bonds had extended his career by taking massive amounts of Vitamin C, Echinacea, and Ginseng? There's just as much medical and statistical evidence that those substances make you hit a baseball better, further, or for that matter have a higher On Base Percentage, compared to anabolic steroids. Getting closer to those substances which you call "cheating," if a player takes (legal) Creatine, which is known to have many of the same physical side effects as anabolic steroids, is he cheating?

And in order to be "cheating," you actually have to be breaking a rule of some sort. To vilify players, especially McGwire, who never broke any MLB rules, to me that is insane.

The logical extension of the anti-steroid argument is that players should be left to their "natural ability" when they are competing. Except players enhance whatever genetic predispositions they have with training and nutrition and technology. It seems like a lot of those screaming "cheater!" have drawn an arbitrary line regarding science they don't really understand.

I disagree that there aren't different levels or degrees of cheating. Is jay-walking as bad as drunk driving? Is cheating at a game of checkers as bad as cheating on your spouse? No...and no. The same applies to baseball, IMO. Taking a PED such as HGH is more of a threat to the game because it cannot currently be detected and/or prevented (though it could if a comprehensive blood testing program were imposed).

And even though Gaylord Perry was an inveterate cheater, the umps still had the purview to scrutinize his actions on the mound, as well as the surface of his baseballs.

Give me a break, guys. A spitball is not the same as steroids. And if you think hyperbaric (not hyperbolic, which was an ironic typo) chambers and vitamins and echinacea and ginseng (which are both useless) are the same as steroids, then you're foolish.

The effects of anabolic steroids are KNOWN. They increase muscle mass and they increase strength. This isn't a "theory" -- it's been known for years. The difference in results from working out while on steroids and while not doing steroids is astronomical. Steroids also help with stamina and battling injuries.

Think about this. A player doing steroids will become bigger, stronger, faster, will be able to stay at full strength the entire season, and it will help him through pain -- and you want to talk to me about using vitamin C? Are you kidding me? It's a huge advantage. Look at Bonds on steroids and Bonds not on steroids. One was ageless and one was an old man.

Raffy Palmeiro went from a guy who belonged in the big leagues to someone who couldn't buy a hit.

Garcia, the point is not that people shouldn't be held responsible for their own drug use, the point is that if sports doesn't take a zero-tolerance policy on the drugs then these kids will be allowed to use the drugs. Nothing will stand in their way, and it almost be acceptable. They need to faze them out completely.

And personally, I DO care if teenagers are using steroids. We don't think kids can drive or drink or have sex at these young ages because they're not mature enough to make informed decisions -- this is true of drug use, too, obviously.

Jason Taylor of the Dolphins was right when he took the NFL to task for allowing Shawn Merriman to go to the Pro Bowl after testing positive for 'roids. I'm not one who normally goes into "just think of the children" mode, but I DON'T want an entire generation of boys dying at 40 of heart failure and liver failure.

The advantage of steroids is extreme, and I can't see how anyone can justify it. When Kelli White did the drugs from BALCO, she said she was embarrassed because it was "too easy" to win. What more do you need to know? Nothing you're going to mention will rise to the level of what steroids can do for you. And even if "fair" is a trite word, I don't think it's fair for some players to have such an obvious advantage.

In the eyes of the law, jaywalking and speeding are the same (where you break the law), the penalties are what are different and that's where the level is set. At the punishment level. But the definition of cheating is not gray, it's black and white. The penalties are what set the levels.

If anyone here can honestly say they've never done anything to seek an unfair advantage, then they've never really played sports. We do this all the time in softball, use the illegal bats till you get caught. So what if you knock out the teeth of the 3rd baseman using the hard dudley balls, at least your team won the game, then you hide the bat.

I was embellishing there, but we all get the point. How about the stick'um that players like Al Toon, Duper, etc, all used? That was cheating and they were gaining an unfair advantage.

Baileywalk, your last post is excellent.

All else is excuse making.

bailey, you probably believed in Reagans "just say no campaign too". How good did that work? Kids will take drugs because of who and what they associate themselves with, not because of Barry Bonds.

I never in my life saw my mother drink, but I had a few at a friend's house when I was 14 - I still do but at least I'm old enough now.

They can police roids and hgh all they want, fact is kids will continue to take the damn thing. I don't have a problem with policing, just that people think it's wrong that people try and seek an unfair advantage when WE ALL try and seek an unfair advantage at some point or another.

Cheating is a way of life. It's not something that's relevant to only Americans, it's all people. The East Germans (at the time) cheated, the Russians cheated, the Canadians cheated, and they still cheat, and we will continue to cheat in the future.

Bill Gates went and bought a Apple so that he can mimic their OS. Steve Jobs didn't like it, but who ended up being more successful in the end. Cheaters do win, it's just a way of life. You can disagree all you want, I stand firm that cheating is an accepted behavior....TILL you are caught then we like to point fingers.

I'm going to stop posting because I'm cheating my employer with time that I should be spending on my project. At least I know I'm a cheater.

I worked as UNIX lab assistant in college, I was taking a telecom class that was being taught from Arizona and the feed was coming through an ISDN line. The TA who was responsible for watching over us was some dumb kid who was just there to hand out the quizzes and test, then he'd collect and send them back to the professor in Arizona. Anyhow, the TA had to get a UNIX account and he came to me for assistance with how to use PINE (a UNIX mail tool) so he can get the emails from the professor. What did I do? I changed his shell script to send me his password when he logged on, I ended up getting an 'A' in the class w/o breaking a sweat because all the exams were sent to his UNIX account.

I knew I was cheating, the professor thought I was smart. I agreed with the professor because I was smart enough to get the kid's password. However, if I would have got caught then I would have been one crying and contrite soul - "Oh mr. dean, that was the first time...I would never, ever, ever, do that again". But I didn't get caught and I'm quite proud, but it's not like I look at parity bits today to figure out if a packet of data that was transferred is correct.

The advantage of steroids is extreme, and I can't see how anyone can justify it.
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Obviously, people can justify it, or else people wouldn't be doing it...

You guys may want to talk to Tom House, because according to him, players have been roiding (PED'ing?) up since the 60's. So why the "moral outrage" now, some 40 some odd years later? Especially in a sport where cheating is the norm?

At what point did it become trite or Reaganesque to believe that cheating is morally reprehensible?

At what point did it become trite or Reaganesque to believe that cheating is morally reprehensible?
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When cheating stopped being morally reprehensible. Go back to my Boswell quote; "Cheating is baseball's oldest profession. No other game is so rich in skullduggery, so suited to it or so proud of it."

As big as a talking point steroids are, people had to know about it when it was going in full swing. They were willing to look the other way. They chose to ignore it. They were too busy counting the $$ and the crowds. And now everyone is trying to take the high road?

Rings a bit hollow to me, IMO. How's that saying go, 'converts are the worst?'

So if something was tolerated in the past, it should be tolerated always? Nothing can ever be changed for the better?

Frankly, I don't care how long people have been doing steroids in sports -- it's still wrong.

Baseball might have looked the other way in the past, but it's progress that they are no longer doing it today.

>>Obviously, people can justify it, or else people wouldn't be doing it...<<

But that doesn't mean the justification isn't senseless.

The biggest flaw in Garcia's argument is that he assumes everyone cheats. Most people do have a sense of morality. It's something instilled by your parents and the influences in your life. So while his opinion might be that low of people, it is my opinion that, though not in all cases, most people are fundamentally good, and their first instinct is not to cheat, steal and lie.

It has been implied in this thread that cheating, whether it be baseball related or not, is not just commonplace but, in fact, acceptable. To me, that is an incredibly cynical perspective. Sorry, but I don't want a surgeon who has forged his medical license removing my appendix, nor do I want an attorney who cheated on the bar representing me in court...

And I don't want my 70-HR hitters clandestinely sticking needles loaded with dianabol in their backsides, either. But I don't blame fans for going crazy over the home run race in '99. Fans are not the gatekeepers of the sport; the owners and the players association are and they are culpable.

This is a difficult topic to address without offending people.

I can only say what is right for me and not for others.

When I played softball we never used loaded bats or any devices not permitted. We lost a lot but we still had fun. Sure, I occasionally tried to convince an umpire that an obvious strike was a ball, but that was competitive.

In golf I am such a hacker a friend actually brought a printing calculator in his bag to tally my score and razz me about it. But I don't see the merit of lying about my number of strokes. It is a game for fun.

I am so far from perfect and have done a lot of things I regret, so I really can't judge anyone. Yet I have to say some of the discussion above justifying the steroid cheating disturbs me.

To me honor is more important than the temporary gain cheating delivers. I am very competitive and love to win, but not enough to compromise what my personal values might be. I have to still live in my own skin and look in the mirror. What I see in the mirror is scary enough without being ashamed of my actions.

So if something was tolerated in the past, it should be tolerated always? Nothing can ever be changed for the better?
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No, of course not. But I can't get behind a bunch of people who suddenly decide to get their knickers in a twist about something that was for all intents and purposes, rampant. Tom House mentioned that he and other players experimented with steroids back in the 60s. Where was the outrage then? The game was making a buttload of $$ promoting the HR exploits of McGwire & Sosa among others. Where was the outrage then? (quickly squashed, from what I remember) And now people want to get high and mighty about steroid use? It doesn't wash with me. In time, this will blow over, like the Pittsburgh Drug Trials did.

Fans are not the gatekeepers of the sport; the owners and the players association are and they are culpable.
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Well, since fans were the ones blowing through the turnstiles, and since they're the ones who like to see HR's (since the Babe Ruth days), they have fault in this too.

To me honor is more important than the temporary gain cheating delivers.
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Me too. And to be honest, I couldn't care less what my teammates did, or even what the other team does. All I can do is worry about myself, and prep for a game the best way I can (which usually involved me staying out to the small hours, to the chagrin of my coaches).

But all I can do is my best out there on the field. If my opponent feels the need to "cheat" to beat me, then it's on him.

Ditto that Paul.

Garcia...seek help.

Not everyone goes through life snickering about how they got over. I hope your next flight is with a pilot that earned his wings straight up. I don't cheat on my wife just because she might find out, I don't do it because I'd know I did it.

#15, I don't need help and I don't go around cheating for the sake of cheating or getting over, I just know it happens enough that I can't worry about steroids in baseball. The difference between you and me is that I choose not to hide some of the things I've done in my life. Don't throw stones.

I've lived enough to know that people who put themselves on a pedestal come crashing harder than a plane 20,000 feet in the air.

I love how people act that cheating isn't something very common in the most prestigious institutions. Cheating in baseball is a small microcosm of the world today, you can look at your world and not find it to be true.

Look at our politicians. Look at the CEO's of so many fortune 500 companies. Look at your own kids, and lastly....look at yourself. None of us ever had a "potential" 100+ million baseball contract staring us in the face and the difference between 20 million and 100 is a needle in our ass. I know I haven't, but I also enough not to judge.

No one here who was taking the alternative point of view was defending the cheaters, I think the point was that we understand it happens and we don't have a big a 'S' on our chest to try and save the world.

I always look back to one of my favorite books, one I didn't cheat and use the cliff notes, it was To Kill A Mockingbird and it's when Atticus tells his kids that we shouldn't judge anyone till we stand in their shoes and no what they are experiencing.

None of you can do that...

Garcia,
I'm not claiming perfection; far from it. However, introspection on those earlier failings, caused me to realize I had to pay a price when I took short cuts, even if it was only in the form of thinking less about mysef. Unlike some of the ball players, in the similar "cross-road" moments of my life, I didn't cheat on the SAT's or the GRE's, didn't plagiarize the dissertation, didn't falsify lab results to support a conclusion, etc.... Also note that I didn't say the players ought to be behind bars (unless they, stupidly, lied to a grand jury) or have their incomes garnished, etc... Let 'em be. Just don't celebrate the cheating with a place of honor. That's the whole point of my original e-mail. I may be in the minority, but I can read the rules, Pete Rose (the single most inspirational ball player of my childhood) broke the rules and, IMHO, doesn't get to come to the party. The ends don't allows justify the means, like you indicate in your 4th paragraph. The Gaylord Perry situation is an interesting one. Personally, I probably wouldn't have voted for him for the HOF.