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The other day I saw a guy with a spider-web tatted around his elbow. My friend pointed out that this was a symbol for either "white power" or that he had killed a minority-which was confirmed by a quick google search.

On the other hand, a lot of people just get it because they think it looks cool.

A quick search of the, pardon the pun, web, confirmed what I always heard about the web on the elbow:

The original meaning of the spider web on the elbow was that one is "Caught up in the system." (Meaning you did time in prison.) The Aryan Brotherhood used the tattoo in the 70's as a mark that you had hit another race. Now the meaning is totally watered down, people get it because they think it looks cool.

Steve, are you sure what you were looking at was an Iron Cross? I've never heard of an Iron Cross having anything to do with sobriety.

The Iron Cross is a German army medal. It was given out pre-WWII, but it's most recognized as a Nazi symbol. When people see an Iron Cross, their first thought is to Hilter and WWII-era Germany, which is why I was shocked to see it on Bruney's arm.

Metalheads might use the symbol too, but that's not what it brings to mind when you see it.

Steve, just a suggestion: I think you should either confirm the connection to the sobriety thing or delete this post (or edit it). I've been around people in AA and NA, and I've never seen any Iron Crosses symbolizing sobriety, so you might be connecting Bruney to something that has no basis in reality.

Just my opinion. You might be suggesting something about Bruney -- innocently -- that's unfair and untrue.

Two seconds of research easily explains this (since it made no sense to me).

You were looking at a Maltese Cross, Steve. Not an Iron Cross.

So instead of just fixing this, I would delete the whole thing. Because you know somewhere along the line someone will read this only partially, or see a few words in a Google search, and think poor Brian Bruney is a drunk.

It was raining, but, I'm 99% sure this is the shape of what I saw on the car:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_Cross

plus, the link that I mentioned in the piece, to the T-shirt, has the same image.

That's not an Iron Cross?

I thought the same thing Bailey, until I looked at the graphic Steve provided of the sticker, and that's definitely an iron cross. Sometimes people mistakenly use an iron cross when they intend a cross alisee, so perhaps that's what happened with the sticker.

You can tell the difference because the arms of the iron cross are thin in the middle and thicken as they extend, and are flat on the end. It's an old Teutonic knight symbol which Hitler appropriated for his Nazi mythology.

A maltese cross is a symbol of a Christian warrior, and it looks a whole lot different, basically 4 arrowhead shapes pointing in towards each other. Follow this link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Maltese-Cross-Heraldry.svg
and you can see a Maltese cross.

Here's a bigger pitcure of what I saw on the SUV:

http://tinyurl.com/fptt5

Again, they call it a Maltese Cross is some places, but, the Wiki entry says that is not correct - it's an iron cross.

Steve, Iron Crosses and Maltese Crosses are often confused. An Iron Cross, which is a GERMAN medal, does not have AMERICAN language on it. But the Maltese Cross DOES say "Live Life, Clean And Sober" -- the Iron Cross does not.

What you saw was the Maltese Cross. Bruney does not have this on his arm -- it's an Iron Cross.

Maltese Crosses and Iron Crosses have nothing to do with each other, by the way.

OK, it's the shape of an Iron Cross with the words "Live Life, Clean & Sober" written on it. It's not an "Iron Cross" (in it's purest form).

That better?

Steve, I'm not trying to bust your balls, but I think what happened here is pretty simple:

You saw what you thought was an Iron Cross but wasn't. People confuse Maltese Crosses and Iron Crosses all the time (which was noted on the 'Net). How do we know it was a Maltese and not an Iron? Because Irons DON'T say anything about living sober (again, they're German) and Malteses DO.

Anyway, all of that doesn't matter -- what does matter is that Bruney doesn't have a Maltese Cross on his arm and therefore all this talk about him being a drunk has no basis in reality. You suggested he was a drunk (or drug addict) based on misidentifying a symbol, and I don't think it's fair. That's all I'm saying.

I'm ultra-sensitive about this stuff because of things that have happened to people in my life. This was an honest, totally innocent mistake by you, but I've seen people have to answer questions about false (and innocent) allegations for their entire lives.

Again, I'm not taking you to task. But it's now obvious that whatever you saw on that window -- regardless of what it was -- has nothing to do with what Bruney has on his arm, and I just think you should delete the reference to sobriety so that it doesn't live on in the Internet forever and ever, possibly to be misinterpreted in the future.

So do whatever you feel is right. I'm going to stay out of this post after this, since it's kind of taken on a circular feel that I think will only get worse.

When I saw it I was thinking more that it might be a tattoo you might have seen on one of the Aryan prisoners in "Oz".

I saw a pitcher once on TV with a white-power tattoo on the back of his neck. This was about 2-3 years ago and although I think I remember who it was I'm not sure enough to say it. The tattoo was an N with a kind of vertical line that I remember also seeing on TV documentaries about white-power groups.

Tattoos are stupid and I'm tired of seeing them on Yankees. Even Cory Lidle has one on his arm, for FSM's sake.

Steve, Iron Crosses and Maltese Crosses are often confused. An Iron Cross, which is a GERMAN medal, does not have AMERICAN language on it. But the Maltese Cross DOES say "Live Life, Clean And Sober" -- the Iron Cross does not.
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Bailey, you need need to look into this a little further. The Maltese cross does not imply any writing, nor do any of the other shapes. The shape is what matters, and Steve saw an iron cross that said Live Life Clean & Sober on it. A maltese cross doesn't look ANYTHING like that at all, although the term maltese is often used incorrectly. The Iron Cross shape predates by centuries the medal used by Hitler. Like the swastika, the Nazis used symbols from other belief systems to create their own national mythology.

All this is to say that Steve is correct in what he said he saw. Whether you're ultrasensitive or not, you're wrong dude, and I'm not trying to bust your balls, either.

Wikipedia has a good overview of all of this. Search for cross symbols, or if you don't trust wikipedia (I usually don't), there's plenty on Google.

As an aside, you're right Bailey that Bruney's tattoo quite probably has nothing to do with sobriety. That symbol is ubiquitous in popular culture.

It is a possibility that's what Bruney's tattoo means, but you'd need a lot more evidence to conclude that.

Thanks all.

And, for the record, I am not saying that BB has a substance abuse issue - I am merely *suggesting* that it (a past issue) *could* be one of many, many, reasons behind his tattoo.

For all I know, someone tattooed it on his arm when he was asleep, as a joke.

Anything is possible. That's my point here - nothing more.

~~~Tattoos are stupid and I'm tired of seeing them on Yankees.~~~

I won't say that they're stupid - since too many of my friends have them. But, I will say that it's concerning, to me, when they can be seen on ballplayers.

Carl Crawford has a huge one on his neck.

Like it or not, kids try and act like ballplayers - it's a fact. I wore my baseball socks like Ron Guidry, broke in my glove like Graig Nettles, and played with my batting glove like Thurman Munson. And, because of Sparky Lyle, when I was 13, I tried chaw.

It's what kids do - because they want to be like their heroes.

And, I can see some 14 year old now lying to an artist about his age and gettting his neck tattooed - just because his hero Carl Crawford did it.

I'm going to be the token liberal here and say that there's nothing wrong with tattoos or other body art as long as they don't violate company policy. Until and unless the D-Rays or other teams ban them the way the Yanks ban facial hair, there's nothing wrong with tattoos in general, or their particular placement on the body (be it neck, forearm, or elsewhere).

When the NBA had Allen Iverson's tattoos airbrushed out of the cover of "Hoops Magazine" back in 2000 or 2001, I found it disgraceful. It's each individual's right to self-expression.

I'd never get a tattoo myself (I'm scared of needles) but if Crawford wants his there, that's OK by me. And if some kid wants to be just like Carl, it's only for his parents to judge, not any of us.

There, I'll get off my liberal soap-box now. Thanks for listening.

Why do you feel concerned about other people getting tatoos just because players have them? This isn't the first time you've brought it up. Do you think you know every player that has a tatoo?

Are you concerned about players with stud earrings?

Would you be concerned if it was a Yankee tatoo?

I'm pretty sure that many 14-year old kids that get a neck tattoo because they think it's cool, will later regret it in life. That's all Rich.

Luckily for the 14 year olds, they don't care for baseball as much as basketball, skateboarding, etc so it won't be Carl Crawford's fault.

I should take after you Steve with your smooth diplomacy. Although personally I wouldn't get a tattoo--I do think they're stupid--but I won't stand in anyone's way that wants to get one.

That being said. There are some professions where tattoos, shall we say, clash with the uniform. Policemen, military folks, surgeons, etc.

Keep 'em covered! Nothing worse than seeing a "tribal" design or whatever is on Cory Lidle's arm getting in the way of pinstripes. I personally like the Yankee "corporate" image (no mustaches, no long hair) and think it should extend to "no large tattoos visible from space." But maybe I'm just old-fashioned.

Bailey, you need need to look into this a little further. The Maltese cross does not imply any writing, nor do any of the other shapes. The shape is what matters, and Steve saw an iron cross that said Live Life Clean & Sober on it. A maltese cross doesn't look ANYTHING like that at all, although the term maltese is often used incorrectly. The Iron Cross shape predates by centuries the medal used by Hitler. Like the swastika, the Nazis used symbols from other belief systems to create their own national mythology.

All this is to say that Steve is correct in what he said he saw. Whether you're ultrasensitive or not, you're wrong dude, and I'm not trying to bust your balls, either.
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Okay, I came back in. I made a liar out of myself.

Sorry, dude, but I'm not wrong. And if you look in my earlier post, I note the history of the Iron Cross.

Looking on-line, I see that some company has marketed clothes and various other junk with "LIVE LIFE, CLEAN & SOBER" on it. They say it's a Maltese Cross, but it looks a lot like an Iron Cross.

So what you basically have is some idiotic company using what looks like an Iron Cross to put across this "sober" message.

A true Iron Cross, and its true meaning, certainly "implies" language -- because a German would never have an English message associated with it.

So after all that bullshit, we're left with a company that doesn't know its own symbol, which caused a lot of confusion.

I still say it's wrong to suggest, based on nothing (since I'm positive Bruney didn't get his tattoo based on a T-shirt), that he has a substance-abuse problem.

A true Iron Cross, and its true meaning, certainly "implies" language -- because a German would never have an English message associated with it.
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Ugh, alright I promise, last post on this subject by me. But....

Can you cite any evidence that language has anything at all to do with the Cross? I've scoured the Internet, and seen not one single shred of information to back you up. There is NOTHING that indicates an Iron Cross with English writing on it is suddenly invalidated and becomes a different shape.

An Iron Cross is a symbol, used by German knights centuries ago. They wouldn't have used English obviously, because they spoke German, but writing something doesn't change its shape.

Does a Star of David not count as a star of David if it has American writing on it?

The shape on that t-shirt is an Iron Cross, a symbol used on everything, from jets in Nazi German to Harley Davidsons.

I'll gladly concede error if you can show me a link that backs you up. Maybe I'm not using the right search terms, but based on what I've seen, I've got nothing but your own opinion on what does and does not constitute an Iron Cross.

Whatever it is, it looks stupid. But such a thread!

Some people have identified the Maltese cross with the Third Reich/Hitler Germany/The Nazis. Strictly speaking, in this context by "Maltese Cross" is meant a version of the "Cross Pattée". In other words, the term "Maltese Cross" is being used as a general term for crosses with splayed arms.

LIKE THIS LINK: http://www.netpages.free-online.co.uk/gms/crosspattees.gif

The definition of a Maltese Cross is one which conforms to a strict definition ("a cross of made from four straight lined pointed arrowheads , meeting at their points, with the ends of the arms consisting of indented 'v's") is without doubt a Christian symbol. However before examining the use of the cross described as "Maltese", the meaning of the cross needs to be considered.

Many people refer to various forms of crosses as the "Maltese cross", but most are only crosses formée, or crosses pattée (a thicker form of cross with definite fluted arms) with a variant form in the pattée formée (almost four triangles in square formation) - such is the form of cross often used by the Fire service in the USA. The true Maltese Cross is described above as "a cross of made from four straight lined pointed arrowheads, meeting at their points, with the ends of the arms consisting of indented 'v's".

The answer to the question of whether the Maltese type Cross (of which the Cross Formée, Cross Pattée and the variant form in the Pattée Formée form examples), represents the sinister, is that the cross is quite neutral.

The tradition of the Iron Cross (which was Cross Pattée in shape) had an honourable beginning, when it was instituted as a Prussian decoration, in March 1813, by King Friedrich Wilheim III during the War of Liberation against Napoleon. It was awarded without regard for nationality or social class to combatants for acts of heroism, bravery or leadership skills.
It was reintroduced in 1870 for the Franco-Prussian War, and re-introduced again on 5th August 1914, by Wilhelm II, Emperor of Germany and the King of Prussia for the Great War of 1914-1918, to decorate those who showed particular bravery or valour.

In the opening hours of World War II, Hitler re-introduced the Iron Cross on the 1st September 1939, to invoke the imagery of the gallant Prussian warriors, the great victories of the Bismark era, and the brave soldiers of World War I. On the reverse side of the Nazi Iron Cross was the date 1813, recalling the former Cross of a nobler era. Superimposed on the centre of the Cross re-introduced by Hitler was the Nazi swastika. Through the evil purposes which unravelled as Hitler continued in power, the Iron Cross became identified with a more sinister purpose.

THIS SI WHAT THE IRON CROSS REPRESENTING HITLER'S NAZI GERMANY LOOKS LIKE: http://www.netpages.free-online.co.uk/gms/ironcross2s.gif