August 23, 2006
August 22nd @ The Mariners
You always hate to lose by a run in the bottom of the 9th. But, given the streaks that both the Yankees and M's were on, you knew, coming into this game, that it was going to be a hard game for the Yankees to win. The odds were too strong against them. So, the sting of the walk-off loss here is offset, somewhat, by the knowledge of odds strength in this contest, I suppose.
If you had to lay blame on this one, I would not assign it to Villone. I give it to Torre. Close game, 7th inning, and you leave Jaret Wright in the game as a relief pitcher? Wright allows too many base runners to be trusted in a spot like that one - and, of course, he loaded the bases.
Not a bad first start for Jeff Karstens. I think he showed the Yankees something in this game. Sure, he might look a little like Steve-O, but, the kid did not melt out there. I'm looking forward to his next start.
Hey, look at the bright side - the Red Sox lost too. Yankees are still up by 7 in the loss column and there's now just 38 games left to the season.
New York can just shake this game off and come back in the next one.
If there's any concern from this game - let it be about Giambi's hammy. The Yankees need him to be fine - if he's not, that's a hole in the line-up.
Posted by Steve Lombardi at August 23, 2006 07:03 AM
I can't fault Joe on using Wright. The BP is shot from the weekend. We saw how tired Villone is. Same has to go for Proctor. It was too early for Farnsworth, and anyway, he's not good 2 days in a row. His only other alternative was to keep Myers in for 2 innings.
What about the Great Dotel?
Posted by: Steve Lombardi at August 23, 2006 09:33 AM
I agree., what about Dotel... All this waiting and all I have seen is ONE good out. Then alot of walks... He has to get some innings and I want to see a return on this investment. I guess gaining Torre's trust takes time.
At this point, Dotel should be left off the post-season roster. He needs to open up some eyes in September for this to change.
Posted by: Steve Lombardi at August 23, 2006 10:18 AM
Instead of placing blame for why the Yankees lost, don't you think the Mariners played a better game yesterday and deserve credit for winning?
Rich - you don't think the Yankees could have won this game with just the slightest different moves?
Posted by: Steve Lombardi at August 23, 2006 10:51 AM
Actually, I blame Torre for letting Villone come out to start the ninth. He wasn't sharp earlier, and with the score tied, why wasn't Mo in there? He hasn't been used THAT much lately.
The sweep coupled with another Red Sox loss leaves me too high to really get down about this game, but I continue to be mystified by Joe Torre. I guess Joe thinks Villone has a bionic arm. As valiant as it is that Villone will take the ball anytime, anywhere, no matter how tired he is -- the guys IS human and he's simply working too much. He basically works every day and for more than one inning. No one can do that. There was no reason to bring him out in the ninth. He wasn't good the inning before. Why put him in a position to lose the game?
Dotel has to pitch. He has to justify his space on the roster. If he can't get a few outs, then they need to re-DL him. I suppose you would hate to put Dotel in a position to lose the game, but he has to take one for the team there, because it's better to let Dotel lose the game than allow Villone to burn out his arm.
Also, what a horrible call from Posada and/or pitch by Villone to end the game. Beltre swung wildly through two changeups high in the zone. He was clearly trying to hit a home run. Then Villone throws him a high fastball, which is what he wanted, and he belts it. Why not waste a pitch oh-and-two?
Steve, we think alike: I thought Karstens looked a like like Steve-O, too. He has great secondary stuff, but so-so control of his fastball. When you throw 88-90, you can't leave your fastball up and over the plate (which he did a few times).
Considering how much Villone and Proctor could use a few days off, I hope Wang goes eight and hands the ball off to Farnsworth.
Glad I wasn't the only one seeing Steve-O last night!
Motion-wise, Karstens reminded me of someone last night too. I want to say Hershiser. But, I'm not 100% sure on it.
Posted by: Steve Lombardi at August 23, 2006 11:24 AM
I think the Yankees could have improved their chances to win the game with some different moves but with Rivera and Proctor ruled out, and assuming you didn't want to pitch Farnsworth at that time, I don't blame Torre for the loss.
Here's my question: Why do people believe the Yankees lost this game due to Torre's poor managing rather than giving credit to Seattle?
Were Torre's decisions large enough that Seattle couldn't overcome them without an unexpected performance by Seattle? To me the posters are always giving very little credit to the opposition.
If the Yankees underestimated their opponents as much as so many fans seem to there'd be a lot more losses.
I'm going to ignore how long he was left in there and give Torre credit for using Wright in middle relief. As much as dislike Wright, he's been moderately effective for 4-5 innings when he starts. In a 5-game or 7-game series, he's probably (hopefully) not going to start, but could make a decent bridge or mop-up guy in a spot. And Torre seems to be auditioning him for that, while hopefully spelling the other guys. I'm OK with that.
do you honestly believe that other teams have talented players and are trying to win the game too? What kind of nut are you.
I dislike Torre's using Villone last night, simply because I think the guy needs a rest -- but Joe knows the situation better than I do. I do find it interesting that he use Wright in relief -- I figured last Friday(?) was a one shot deal, but yeah, maybe Torre's looking to see how he'll do out of the pen come October. All in all, I can't complain about the loss.
RICH, obviously teams beat the Yankees -- they don't always beat themselves. But certainly a manager's decisions impact the game.
The objection is not the use of Wright. I think more managers should have their starting pitchers throw in games on their throw day. I don't see anything wrong with it, and since relievers get so overused nowadays, it can really be beneficial.
But even with Proctor and Mo unavailable, you can't keep abusing Villone. Dotel is on this team. I know he's coming back from an injury, but he has to pitch. You don't want to use him in a tie game in the ninth, but Villone can't be expected to throw this many innings. So either Torre had to use Farnsworth for two innings or go with Dotel. It's the same old story with Torre: he wouldn't use Villone for the longest time, but now he's using him ALL the time. Villone, like Proctor before him, needs a nice two or three days off to recharge the batteries.
And Dotel simply has to get work in. We'll never know what we have with him if he doesn't pitch.
Well put re: Dotel... the man has to be ready for the fall in order to be of any use to the team. This is the time that Torre should be conditioning him. BTW, Karstens better not start pulling earthworms out of his nose...
Posted by: Athos333 at August 23, 2006 02:01 PM
We go from wanting to put virtually all the bullpen into deep-freeze to typical complaining and pointing blame at Joe Torre when the team (gasp!) loses a game after that series and after flying all that distance. Quite frankly, I was surprised they made a game of it.
But blame Torre? LOL
I find it hard not to question alot of Torre's pitching moves (over the last two seasons especially). Nevertheless, what's wrong with a discussion involving opposite points of view so that Yanks fan can learn from one another? Must we all nod our heads in agreement when it comes to the skipper, gen mgr, or owner?
Posted by: Athos333 at August 23, 2006 03:10 PM
the question I have is why was Kyle even warming up if you wouldn't bring him in to face seattle's two best righties? at least use the other righty, dotel.
but instead Torre went with a LEFTY!
Nevertheless, what's wrong with a discussion involving opposite points of view so that Yanks fan can learn from one another? Must we all nod our heads in agreement when it comes to the skipper, gen mgr, or owner?
Well, I'm glad SOMEONE around here gets it...
Athos, you must not watch much ball outside of the Yankees. If you did you'd be amazed at how many managers do it worse than Joe Torre. That is the problem with the niggling concerning Joe's 'handling' of the bullpen.
Don, I know you're a Torre devotee, but do you really like the way he uses the bullpen? You don't think he constantly relies on only a few guys and uses them to the point of exhaustion?