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Of course he'll get in. Where we can see and notice all these flaws they will most likely be ignored by HOF Voters. Not that I'm saying he shouldn't get in. He has won four World Series and made the playoffs every year he's been here. I think he's a lock.

A baseball manager has much less impact than a head coach in football. How can one determine how much of ateam's results are due to the maanager? Has any sabremetrician studied this question?

Rightly or wrongly, Torre's record as a manager will get him into the HOF. And, don't forget that he had a near HOF career as a player.

I'm not defending Torre, but if you apply the same scrutiny to any manager, you're going to come to the same conclusions. Isn't that what Cooperstown is all about anyway? Dumb luck, politics, a fundamental misunderstanding of statistics, and cheap tequila.

FWIW, in my book, The Baseball Same Game, Torre maps out to Jim Bottomley, as a player, and, since Jim is in the HOF as a player, that makes a case for Joe.

Torre's survived 10 years as Steinbrenner's manager. That alone is worthy of the HoF. He's batted .400 in terms of WS wins to seasons (and was within one Rivera ninth inning of a fifth.) Contrast that to Bobby Cox, with only 1 WS to 14 post seasons. How many managers have been more successful? Casey Stenegl 1949 -1960, but that's sandwiched by a lot of lousy seasons:
http://www.baseball-reference.com/managers/stengca01.shtml

Quite frankly, I do not get all this Torre bashing. Is he a great in game manager? No, and I don't think anyone has ever defended him as such. He's much better at getting the players to come together as a team, and insulates them from off-field distractions like media vultures or George. I think he relied tremendously on Zim for in game insights, pity George drove him away. Still, the Yankees have been in the post season every year the last decade, which is more than every team but the Braves. Even with the horrible end in 2000 the Yankees didn't totally collapse and won the third in a row.
Remember, the other teams are filled with major league players (except for the Royals) who are talented and playing to win as well.

Sorry for the length

I'm not defending Torre, but if you apply the same scrutiny to any manager, you're going to come to the same conclusions. Isn't that what Cooperstown is all about anyway? Dumb luck, politics, a fundamental misunderstanding of statistics, and cheap tequila.
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Makes for a great weekend in Upstate NY, tho :)

Yeah, I'm not going to get into the Torre bashing either. I've said before, just about anything can happen in the playoffs, all you need to do is make it there.

It doesn't take away from the successes, it doesn't take away from the failures. It's just the way it is.

rbj - shouldn't only great managers get into the HOF?

Absolutely, Steve. The question is, how do you define a great manager. Is Tony LaRussa great, and if so, why? He only has one WS ring and three other pennants. Is Stengel? He only had success with a loaded Yankee lineup.

Torre does a damn fine job of managing for the season, in terms of keeping the players focused on baseball, IMO. I certainly have no evidence for this, but suppose Torre recognizes his weakness for in game strategy and relies on more competent people for that. I don't see that as necessarily counting against him, rather every manager has strengths & weaknesses; it certainly - to me - counts positively if someone knows his weaknesses and looks for help.

Steve, it's typically ironic that Torre's own "explanation" for the team's recent "drought" of World Championships is precisely that...luck. And, from the macrocosmic POV, he is most definitely right. Yankees fans are spoiled. However, the bridge does go both ways, as you say, Steve. I really don't care if Torre makes the HOF...I'm sure it's an honor he would richly appreciate and, for that, gey gezunterheyt. And, rbj, naming Lee Mazzilli, Larry Bowa, and Tony Pena to your coaching staff AND still making Jeter bunt and keeping Rivera from throwing a single pitch through an entire series isn't what I would call "recognizing" one's weaknesses and looking for help. And, people, Zimmer's dispute with Steinbrenner had more to do with Torre's $7 million a year salary in his last contract than any "disrespect" felt from George. The real disrespect occurred to Zim's wallet. You do the math.

Have a good weekend everyone