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And he's doing everything in his power to make sure the team doesn't make the playoffs. I am disgusted again at the media's predictable take on George's latest criticism of Torre. Instead of nailing Torre on the utter lunacy of his move to let Embree pitch to Konerko (especially considering it was a 1 run deficit in the 9th at home with the meat of your order due up for last licks), they chose to once again paint George as the raving lunatic not Torre. Nor has there been any analysis of Torre's execrable use of his bullpen especially in the last month where he's lost at least 4 games due to his sheer incompetence. Steve, I hate to say it, but this has always been about Torre getting a farewell tour at $7 million a year and a nice buyout. We are familiar with the concept of mercenary players in this age of $100 million multi-year contracts...Torre's the advance guard for the mercenary manager. If he had ever given a damn about developing Yankees prospects, he'd be assured of managing this team for as long as he wanted. Don't accuse George of being a slave to instant gratification without including Mr. Torre in your indictment.

That's because George has a history of being a raving lunatic...

Well, at least Torre isn't calling him "Manager George" :D

Did I accuse George of being a slave to instant gratification?

Steve: Joe has four rings and a plaque waiting for him in Cooperstown. He is owed something like $12 million and is very popular with the media. Win or lose, he will be back in 2006.

JohnnyC: No manager of the New York Yankees can afford to be anything but a "mercenary manager." This is New York. Nobody gives a shit about "developing prospects." Developing prospects is for Minnesota, Cleveland and Kansas City. Here it is about winning rings. And for all of his problems, Mr. Torre has four of them.

JohnnyC, do you think the Boss's public disparagement of Torre is a reasonable thing for an employer to do? Again, because it's the Boss, we've come to expect such acts of lunacy. In my view, it's utterly unprofessional and unproductive for the Boss to humiliate Torre publically. Should Torre counter that Steinbrenner and management had the worst off-season of any Yankee front office in a long while? Should he tell reporters: "Hey, look who they brought in and what they're doing right now? Wright and Womack are doing what basically everyone in America expected them to be doing. Good job by the Boss and his team!"

Yes, he has four. But, he should have at least 6, maybe more, if not for some stuff that was his own doing. At some point, the rings-lost are going to out number the rings-won.

Except for Joe's mishandling of the bullpen in Game 5 against the Red Sox, I'm OK with his post-season managing. Everyone is allowed a bad game.

If this team does not make the post-season for the first time in 10 years, I am not going to blame it on the guy who brought them there nine consecutive times.

Saying he [Torre] should have at least six(!), maybe more, is BS. At least six from 1996 through 2004? At least six, maybe more, over nine seasons? Get real SL.

They could have/should have lost the 1996 Series. People tend to forget that one.

There was no "should have" in 2001, when you recall Pettite's two dreadful starts were the real culprit. That and MO couldn't throw a ball to second base.

It was not Torre's fault they lost in 2003, the team died on the field, right in front of us, only we didn't realize it at the time.

Don, Torre lost the 2003 WS when he brought Weaver into that game in FLA. And, he lost 2001 by pushing Mo for two innings in Game 7. (I have a friend who knows Mo who said that Rivera told Joe before the game 'I only have one bullet' meaning he can only give one inning without doubt.) But, Joe pushed him by going to him in the 8th, instead of using someone else for that inning. But, of course, this is just my opinion, and everyone is always entitled to think differently.

Steve, that comment was not aimed at you but the media.

Joel: I suppose Bobby Cox ain't interested in winning. His front office gave him a starting corner outfield of Brian Jordan and Raul Mondesi. His best player Chipper Jones has barely played this season, he's lost 3 of his starters for significant portions of the season, the closer his GM got for him sucks. Does he lay down and curse the Almighty, John Schuerholz, and Time Warner? No, he correctly calculates that the prospects they would have to trade to get veteran reinforcements (guys Torre always wants) are at least equal in ability and a whole lot cheaper. This is a decision that satisfies his desire to compete for the post-season as well as addresses the future of his franchise...a team that, by the way, has not put him under contract beyond this season. That's what I'm talking about.

Nick: Joe Torre is not a bookkeeper in the back office of Bloomingdale's. Baseball, last I looked, is played for money in front of millions of eyeballs on a daily basis and the most eyeballs are here in NYC. Every manager, including Joe Torre, knows the grounds rules in a public venue like this. It is alright it seems for every Yankees fan from here to Rangoon to flog the living bejesus out of Tony Womack for his many sins but not alright to voice public criticism of Joe Torre? Even if the man who voices that criticism has 7 million reasons a year to do so? Joe Torre is so upset with his treatment by Steinbrenner that he re-upped for $19 million over three years when he should have just walked away if he thought he'd be better treated elsewhere. Like Boston? Where Grady Little really felt beloved by John Henry and Larry Lucchino, I'm sure. At least Steinbrenner doesn't issue offical press releases about Torre's pitching changes. Grady Little knows about that. And Boston fans are happy he's gone, don't you think?

Nobody gives a shit about "developing prospects." Developing prospects is for Minnesota, Cleveland and Kansas City. Here it is about winning rings. And for all of his problems, Mr. Torre has four of them.
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And without Stick & Buck "developing prospects" Torre wouldn't have squat.

Or did you forget 1982-1993?

If this team does not make the post-season for the first time in 10 years, I am not going to blame it on the guy who brought them there nine consecutive times.
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I'd blame it on the braintrust for assembling this squad.

JohnnyC: Bobby Cox is also a HOF manager. He also has one ring and plays in the NL East.

Steve: Come on. We couldn't hit a lick in the 2003 Series. I'm not blaming that on Torre. And if there was ever a game that Mo should have been stretched for 2 innings it was Game 7 2001. If Mo makes a good throw to second or Brosius completes the double play, we win.

You guys are really ready fire Joe? Who are you bringing into this baseball cauldron to lead us? Give me one guy who right now can do a better job than Torre.

++Don, Torre lost the 2003 WS when he brought Weaver into that game in FLA.++

Who else was available? It wasn't Torre's fault that Sori & Boone decided to hack at everything within the same zip code. It wasn't Torre's fault that Wells' back went on him.

++And, he lost 2001 by pushing Mo for two innings in Game 7. (I have a friend who knows Mo who said that Rivera told Joe before the game 'I only have one bullet' meaning he can only give one inning without doubt.) But, Joe pushed him by going to him in the 8th, instead of using someone else for that inning.++

You have the opportunity to win the series (especially with the way that one went), you go with your best. No doubt, no questions. End it right there. He may be tired, but he has the offseason to catch up on rest.

//Who else was available? (In the Weaver game in the 2003 WS in FLA.)//

How soon they forget.......

Rivera pitched 2 innings the night before, and you're not going to burn him in a tie game

It was a chance to go up 3-1, with 3 to play (2 at home), you go for it. Or, use anyone else but Weaver. Even Hammond would have been better than Weaver.

JohnnyC, I basically agree that Torre has done a dubious job this year, especially in managing the bullpen. To my mind, his utter lack of imagination in his use of the pen is close to unforgiveable, and yet I still think it's out of line for the Boss to publically humiliate his employee. Same goes for that sleazeball Larry Luchino who runs that historically slezy franchise to the North. Call me old-fashioned or soft, but what point does it serve for George to shit on his manager except to distract fans and media from some of the most glaring problems that the Boss's own mismanagement created. Really, what's a bigger problem? The way Torre mismanages this team, or the fact that 4 starters are down with injury, the team's defense is awful, highlighted by the especially atrocious play of the once-great Bernie, and that the bench is probably the thinnest one in baseball? Why doesn't the Boss sermonize about his disappointment in the management team that brought him the likes of Jaret Wright, Pavano and Womack at a steep cost? Because, in all likelihood, he was a major reason why Wright and Womack are here.

The problem was not bringing in Weaver. The problem was playing with fire by leaving him in for a 2nd inning, where he promptly delivered up the game-winning HR. Joe pulled a similar move a few nights ago with Embree.

I think both sides here have some merit. Joe has been mostly a terrific manager for us and we owe much of our success to his leadership. However, this year has not been one of his best, to put it mildly. Would I fire him? No chance. Would I be devastated if he resigned? No.

Yep, this has been a BAD year of managing by Joe.

Who, unlike a Bobby Cox, has had to put up with a crazed owner and 2AM phone calls et al. It gets to you after a while. I'm surprised Joe is still in apparent good health ten years on the job. But he has shown signs this year of fraying at the edges.

That Yankee fans want to fire him without heaping the deserved praise on him is rather sad.

I don't think Torre should be fired - but I think he can certainly stand to answer some critical questions about his (mis)use of the bullpen and then bench. I have a long list I'd like to ask, but the #1 question is why he consistently plays like he only has 19 or 20 guys available? F-Rod, Graman, Bubba Crosby, (especially) Andy Phillips . . . its almost like Torre doesn't know he has these guys. Of course, this is nothing new - its been a failing of Torre since at least 1997. So has bullpen mismanagement. When you see the same errors consistently over a ten-year period, and you realize that no rings have been won in almost 5 years . . . its no wonder that people are calling for Torre's head.

Joe Torre has done something no Yankee manager since Casey Stengel has done - win 4 championships. I will never forget that, and he will have my eternal respect for that. Nonetheless, he has his failings, and he should be made to answer for them. Who knows - maybe he'll even change?

Torre's bullpen mishandling and bench mishandling since "at least 1997"? I guess the Yankees didn't win the WS in 1998 1999 and 2000 and very nearly did so in 2001. Must have been all that mishandling that confused me into thinking this.

Not to mention 1996.

The problem was not bringing in Weaver. The problem was playing with fire by leaving him in for a 2nd inning, where he promptly delivered up the game-winning HR. Joe pulled a similar move a few nights ago with Embree.
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And several years ago with David Weathers and Graeme Lloyd.

You remember how well they did after they came over, right? Playoffs, a different story.

Sometimes you catch lightning in a bottle, sometimes you don't.

Up until that point, Weaver hadn't seen any game action. What's the point of having him on the roster, if he isn't going to pitch?